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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Spacetrace Poem Competition
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Hello fellow space mutants! I’m your host, Micky Mycilloid! And I am here to tell you about a brand new competition! The very first of it’s kind (and possibly the very last of it’s kind)! With great prizes! Want to here what it is?! Ok!

All you have to do is write a poem about Spacetrace. The poem doesn’t have to rhyme, and it doesn’t have to be really long either. But, you talk about Spacetrace! What a marvellous challenge!


**********Anyone who takes part gets 5 credits**********

**********The person who writes the best poem will receive 25 credits**********

***If more than 10 people take part, the winner will receive a free ST card game***



All poems must have been private messaged to me by 3.00pm GMT+1 Friday the 15th of August. On Saturday the 16th a jury will judge and on Sunday the 17th we will announce the winner.

If this isn’t a success then it will never happen again.. EVER! So good luck!

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: KoT proclaimed winner of ST Poetry Competition
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The Spacetrace Competition Entries are...


Knight of Truth, with his poem, 'Spacetrace'.


And the winner is...


Knight of Truth, with his poem, 'Spacetrace'!!!


Let's all pay a little respect and read KoT's poem:





Four races to choose from,
so many ships to build.
Planets with galactic scum;
Will you win, or be killed?

Alliances, war, and highscores,
are the order of the day.
On which side will YOU join the planetary fray?

Strange technologies to choose from:
Humans with their kamikazes,
Nanites oh so small,
Mycilloids and E-rays too,
and Kazuuula's list them all.

Fighting may be your daily doing,
but there are other things a-brewing.
Make creatures or colonise the stars,
The galaxy has little bars.

Travellers too call this their home,
as ''Dominion'' or ''It'' they roam.

An odd bunch these creatures are,
they come from close, and afar.
With many strange tongues and manners,
they put propaganda on their ***.

Time is taken for the war,
even though ships move above light-speed.
Check your planet once in the night,
and check once more, in the morning.
If you've got few enemies, it'll be alright.

Disaster can come swift and brutal,
but smarts will turn the tide.
Strategy makes the winning side.

There can be only one game I describe;
I have had many a-base.
Seek no further for, an epic game;
it is, of course, Spacetrace.





Well done to Knight of Truth there, but to the rest of you, you should all feel deeply and utterly ashamed of yourselves for not even bothering to write an entry. And so for the catastrophic failure of this competition, nothing like this will ever happen again.


Ever!!!!


So, who gets the credits? Well, Knight of Truth wanted to give out the credits to all the other competitors, but, seeing as there were no other competitors, we're just going to have to throw the credits down the toilet.






I'm so gonna get fired for this...




Goodnight!

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: PSD vs ITW war rages on while a new war starts
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Hello there folks, tune in for our latest news update:

Hi, I’m Klaaak Kazuuul with the news today. We will be discussing the PSD vs ITW war that rages on in this addition. But before that we have some braking news. It seems WFS is on a roll stealing flags, first capturing and holding the TOC flag till it reached 20%, then capturing and cashing in the IG flag early and now it seems that WFS has captured the flag of the number 1 alliance NoStars! There are 46 days left to this era and a roughly 30 000 point gap between NS on number 1 and WFS at number 2. So the questions are, are 46 days enough for WFS to get more points then NS and, more importantly, is WFS strong enough to pull this off? Find out more in the next report.


WFS retreating with the captured NS flag

Now lets go over to the war that is going on a little longer, the PSD vs ITW war.
The war between PSD and ITW rages on. But we are seeing and hearing some strange things. There are rumours that ITW are just sitting at there base waiting for PSD to come to them, although it seems that may be PSD's own fault after a complaint from Holy Crusader that there are so many attacks that he has no time to build a cloak generator for vacation reasons.
Then it seems PSD is having trouble getting their head above the water, frist dropping to a number 12 place and now just getting their heads up at 1600 points on number 7. They seem to be trying to hold all 3 score planets and fight a war at the same time. Are they giving some breathing space to ITW which they outnumber or are they in desperate need of points?
Who knows? Maybe we will find out in a later addition, but first an interview with the ITW leader, the one and only Renee:


Klaaak: Why was this war started in the first place?

Renee: To make noobs into vets in under 6 months.

Klaaak: When this era started did you have anything like this in mind to do?

Renee: No, this is being done in advance of some major changes coming in strategy (due to the ttc and vc releases) and the anticipated return of TO and others. TO will not return unless they have formidable adversaries and st activity will never return to it's former "glory".

Klaaak: How long is this war going to take, will it end when the era does or is that not certain?

Renee: As long as it takes to get others trained

Klaaak: On the forum you have claimed to make a lot of points on attacks from PSD, if this is true, do you think there is a chance they will learn and that the attacks may get better?

Renee: I learn more from defeat than victory and so will psd

So, ITW is having some action and training their members. And PSD seems to be learning too, first war against TOC and now a war against a more active alliance: ITW. The question remains, will ITW be able to keep up the winning streak or will PSD be able to learn its lesson before the era ends?
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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: 10th Era - Soya Drinks and Shade
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GNN News #44 - Soya Drinks and Shade




Well hello there to another bucket filled edition of your one and only favourite Galactic News Network… GNN.

I am your host, Augustus Gloope.




And what have we got for you in-store today?



-Inside information on the 10th era…

-All the gossip from the greatest sources…

-Herbert the mind reader gives us his prediction…

-The Spacetrace Awards - DECISION TIME!!!





But first, let’s show some respect.

Death Angels, the one man alliance, was found gone two months ago, due to unknown circumstances.

It was the alliance, that was too bold to get any points, too confident to learn how to play the game.. And in the end.. Too unimportant.. To live, breath and fight against the glory alliances of WFS and NS.


The true Australian of the beauty pagent. The North Korea of the Nobel Peace Prize. The crane fly of the Animal Kingdom; but more importantly, the one man alliance, of Spacetrace.


Long live, great, unimportant alliances. Forever shall they reign the lowest depths of the alliance leaderboard.




(Death Angels' gravestone).



Now, onto more serious things. It is the beginning of the new era. Not much happens… it’s just the beginning, of a new era. Warriors of The Fallen Star won last time. Will they do they same? Probably.. But that’s not what I’m going to talk about today oh no! I am going to talk about the new threat that beckons over the horizon. A new beach on a sunny hill. A new flea on a scratchy head. I am, today, going to talk to the legendary Ray of The White Lighter, one of the founding members of CGC, aka the Coalition of the Galactic Commonwealth.




Hey! It’s Ray!
Hey GNN.

So how are you today?
Fine thanks.

Do you need a drink of water before we start?

No thanks.

How about a lemonade?

Nope.

A bunch of grapes?

Nope.

A Soya drink?
GNN, can’t we just get on with the interview now?

Fine..


Question one, what are your aims for the new era, do you think you can stay number #1 and crush NoStars to the ground?


Yes, we definitely intend on being number #1.. As for crushing NS to the ground I don’t really know about that… we don’t really like to crush an alliance unless there is a valid reason for war… but were just a group of actives and our score is a result of our activity levels, teamwork and communication.

I see.. Ok, next question… your alliance has a truly unique system - you can get medals and trophies and rubies and diamonds and stuff. How is that working out? Is it helpful?

Yes - I created it as a source of encouragement our members can work towards, however, it is more of a fun aspect than anything; they seem to enjoy it.


Nice… well, I’m kind of running out of questions here… err… what’s your favourite colour?…
Black.

Favourite number?
13.

Favourite Sudanese landmark?

GNN.. How about I tell you some real important news… Shade has rejoined ST as a player and has collaborated forces with, not TO, but with the CGC.




Well, how about that for a scoop. You never know, we might actually get people reading GNN!




So, onto other important news stories… Well.. There isn’t any, so thet’s just go straight to our feature documentary for today...




Space has puzzled the minds of scientists from all races for millions of years.. So has the future… so has the past.. So has the present.. So has the future.. But nothing more so than the enema that is outcome of the 10th era. Who will triumph with victory? Who will quiver under pressure? Who will be reported a multy and who, will be the first person to use the word ‘jiggity’ in a recruitment topic? Well, lets pass over to the spell-binding Herbert the Mind-reader for his rendition of what is going to happen in the new era.

Hello! Hello! I am Herbert the Mind Reader! So what have we here? It’s a crystal ball.. A crystal ball that will reveal all… And what do I see in the Crystal ball? I see madness, purity, and magic. The gruesome twosome of Renee and Dave will prove once again that they are the overlords of the multihunters. They are expected to report in excess of 27 incidents of overblown cheating. Will anyone take notice? Of course they will. Will any action be done? Of.. Course.. It will…


I’m looking deeper into the Crystal ball.. HolyCrusader and DragonLilly are to start Nuclear war, MicroJak will reach 5000 posts… IRC Stats will make a dramatic return and Spacebot will come out of the closet. But onto the more important things - who will win the era?
Well, I’m looking deeper still into the eerie pits of the crystal ball.. I see… I see Imperial Wizard achieving yet another highscore in the hall of fame.. I see NoStars having a hard time with the WFS and CGC brotherhood… but what else do I view? Wait.. No.. could it be?...




I see the return of a great alliance. One that retches at the sight of negative scores. One that makes the other alliances shiver.. One, that has quivered and shaken the very hearts of the alliance centres for years. I see… the return of Total Ownage.






(Herberts' crystal ball).




Well! That is taking it to the extreme! And is it true? Ha! Nothing you read these days is ever true! But still, Herbert the mind reader is an excellent mind reader. He was the first to predict Michael Jackson would turn white and that Amy Whinehouse would die of drug abuse by the age of 23...






Anyway! Now onto our third and final topic! The 1st Spacetrace ceremony awards are finally apon us! Every end of era there will be beautiful trophies to be given to the lucky contestants! And what have we decided to call the awards? The Newbies? No… the Vets? No.. the name of this luxurious prize is, the Spaceys!



(A Spacey award).



And here are the categories:





--Best forum member--
This award goes to whoever has contributed the best to the forums. Has commented well, has made suggestions and inquires and has been an active member for at least 1 year. They must also have good 'karma' rating.

And the nominees are.....


AL12
T2
MicroJak
Robert Roy
ReneeADavis





--The Coolest Person Award--
This award goes to whoever is the coolest. They must have a natural flair for being laid back, normal, and able to make people laugh without being over-dramatic.

And the nominees are.....


MJX1
Senor
Linux666
T2




--Person of the 9th Era--
This award goes to whoever has been the player that everyone should look up to. In thier attitude, their prescence, the way they treat other players. The winner of this award is someone who every other player should aspire to be, both in skill and in attitude.


And the nominees are.....


colinthecorgi
ImperialWizard
Al12
Zoph




--The Best Player Award--
This award goes to the best player of the 9th era. The winner is not neccessarily the person who has accumilated the most points. It is the person who has shown their ultimate skill through thick and thin. The winner has already been decided, so stick around for the result next week!




Those are the crucial nominations. If you care enough, you can message me with your vote; overall, I and a panel of specially selected officiates will judge who will win the awards, however your vote still does count and will act as a bribe for whoever you want to win! So get voting! Closing date is the 20th of October. Good Luck.





Well, that’s almost it for GNN tonight! But before we go let’s have a quick look at the highscores.



And what a special time it is for Spacetrace, with 4 people expected to get over 100k in points. Analysing the scoreboard, it clearly shows that Imperial Wizard is going for glory, with a 20k points advantage over second placed Ocean. The reigns of ConnorMcloud are bringing up the rear in 10th place, but can we expect more from the Dutchman as he moves into the second half of his evo?


And finally, lets look at the alliance leader board.



CGC are clearly the early starters, followed by NoStars in second place. The gruesome twosome of DoubleTrouble are in 3rd with NextGeneration just 200 points below. In The Way and ToC are close together in 5th and 7th, while WFS have yet to make a big impact in 6th position. But still, it is the first week of the new era, and anything can happen in the next 14 weeks.



Well that’s just about it for GNN, but stay tuned for a weekly update, in… in a week.. Where we reveal more info on the Shade-CGC partnership, and we also announce the winners of the acclaimed Spacey awards.


So from me, Augustus Gloope, and all the GNN team,



Goodnight!!!

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: #45 - Tight, knit, and don't they know it - CGC Special


GNN News #45 - Tight, knit, and don't they know it





Hello fellow space players! Your very favourite Galactic News is back! And back with a bang! We have a very special 11th era super-spectacular edition in store for your very eyes.. So have a sip of a dry Nanitini… eat a Mars bar.. Think of better puns than me to sparingly make this… passable ’humour’… Because this is what we have in store for you tonight!…




-All the info on the 10th and 11th era…

-CGC’s Lilly and Sparks talk to us about the goings-on behind CGC doors.

-The winners of the very last (and quite probably the very last, since none of you bothered to f***king vote..) Spacey Awards!!!

-We launch ‘This is your life’, ST style, with our first interviewee, Senor!!! (Yeah I know.. We’re running out of ideas here..)

-We read out reactions from the ST community from the recent CTF changes.




So, let us swiftly move onto our first topic.

CGC have shown their wisdom and stunned us all.. (even Herbert the mind-reader), by winning the 10th era. Second places allies WFS were a whole 89,000 points behind. XYZ came in in third with newcomers newbie h4x0rs in 4th, but Era 10 spelt a dismal 100 days for the once-leading alliance, NoStars.

Will CGC prevail next time round? Some say that only ‘time will tell’, but, while time is making its mind up, we had an interview with CGC empress Lilly and a rare chance to talk to behind-the-scenes man, the veteran player, Sparks.






Hey Lilly!
Hey Nox- I mean.. GNN!

How are you?
I’m fine. How about yourself?

I’m good too actually, thanks for asking. You know it’s rarely people ask me how I-
Hang on a sec... phone-

...........

Can I talk to you yet?

Hang on...

..........

How about now?
Give me 10.. Star Trek’s just finishing..

And now?
Just gotta have a battle...

Now?
Shops.

Now..
Dinner.

Now??
David Letterman is on..

Ok, how about next week?
How about now?


Ok…

Question 1.. First of all, What do you intend to call the new era?

Aah.. Sorry GNN.. I can’t disclose that information.. Gotta wait for admin to approve it..


Ok, Question 2, what are your ambitions for the next era?
Our ambitions for the new era are to keep the community and admins excited about spacetrace... since we are a revolutionary alliance we must keep the energy going.


Excellent answer! OK, question 3, Do you intend to stick to your 'new leaf for Lilly' thread, or will Jack09 get to you too much?
I do indeed plan on sticking with the 'new leaf' for myself topic I posted... I want to work more with the community and admins, keeping ST fun. Jack won't be any issue... as I said I'm turning over a new leaf.


And question 4... How much will you allow me to bend your answers to make them sound more interesting, but less informative?
Bending my answers?… check with me first! Oh and, GNN, I do have a title recommendation - ‘Lilly signs a peace treaty and CTF gets a face lift'


O…k… I’ll take it into consideration!! … Bye Lill-
Hang on a sec, phone...



Well, there was Lilly’s response. When our reporter Klaak Kazuul came back to the office, we weren’t too pleased with his efforts, so, we sent him back to track down the elusive Sparks.


Is.. Is that you.. Sparks?..
It is me.. GNN.


Wow! What an honour it is to meet you! After all these years!

Thanks, GNN. It’s an honour to be interviewed too.


Well, let’s get straight to the first question, in a few sentences, what do you think of the CGC?
I think CGC from its conception has been an incredible alliance to be in.

Its learning curve has been seriously exponential, and as such has been reflected in the total domination of the last era in addition to the revitalisation of the ST community and game.



Woah! What a fantastic answer! That's gonna make you sound v. clever on the forums!

Ok, question 2, What do you think of the friendship between the players?

I think I contacted DL just before the start of the era.

I was deciding to return to ST after a hiatus (previously I had been with PSD, just like DL and breon).

I contact DL and not long later was brought into the CGC fold. I found this was the first alliance I had been in where there was a sense of community and I it was because of this and their friendship/ I became again more interested in playing ST.

In fact, I don’t think I would have put on such a big score and come top of the player lists if not for them.



Excellent answer, once again! Well, my boss should be happy. I got more words in those two comments then 7 whole paragraphs with lowvoice! Thanks very much Sparks!
Np GNN. That’s the other reason I don’t talk so much... when I do I don’t stop!







Well, that was our whole interview with two of the key figures of what is being dubbed, the ’ST Revolution’. And it seems that CGC are so tight, they are even planning to meet up in real-life, for a ‘ST weekend war party’. Sparks and various other CGC members will be flown off from the four corners of the globe and meet up in the backyard to eat, sleep, watch Star Trek and fight across Spacetrace.


Quote:
together even if we had to come up with the money to fly sparks from the UK to the US for a weekend gathering to hang out... everyone would bring their laptops and network them together... and we'd probably end up calling it something like a weekend war party... we aren't exactly sure of the dates yet but all CGC members definately seem interested... it shall be a good time...




CGC's party is likely to take place later this year





And now onto other news! We shall now announce the winners of the highly-proclaimed, Spacey awards!



A quick reminder of what a Spacey award actually looks like...


The first award for ‘best forum member’ goes to whoever is the most involved in the forum, whoever is deemed worthy of this honour will be ultimately the ‘king of the forum’…



And the nominees are…




MicroJak
Al12
T2
Robert Roy
ReneeADavis




And the winner is....



MicroJak!!!




We caught up with MicroJak in a busy English garbage truck.




Hey MJ, you’ve won the Spacey award for best forum member!’
Your kidding.. Right?



No! seriously.. You’ve won!
But I never win anything! I stink at this game!


Well.. You’ve won this.. Got anything to say?

Yes.. Of course! Thankyou to anyone who voted for me..!





Who did vote for me?


Well actually MJ, you were the sole voter out of all of our categories, so you won, by default..’

Really? …


....


Awesome!!!



MJ wins the very first Spacey award for Forum activeness



And secondly, the winner for ‘coolest player award’ goes to.. Simply the coolest player that’s ever existed inside our community. The nominees are..


Mjx1
Senor
Linux666
T2





And the winner is…





Mjx1!!!!




Sadly mjx1 was too busy doing cool stuff like downloading Linux and eating pizza, so he sent us this YouTube video to pass on his gratitude and thank-you’s:

Acceptance Speech


And thirdly, because the GNN editor is so ***king lazy and can’t be bothered to do more than one article every 100 days.. The third award will be renamed - ‘Person of the 9th, and 10th era’


The nominees are…


Al12
Imperial Wizard
Zoph
Colinthecorgi




And the winner is..



Al12!!!



Let’s hear what he had to say…




al12, you have won the Spacey award for ‘Person of the 9th & 10th era! What do you have to say?
Cool.

(sound surprised, damn it!)
Woooah! I never thought I’d win such a thing! Thanks to my Mum.. My Dad.. WFS and everyone who keeps ST going.

Hey GNN.. Have you ever made poached eggs before?





Al12 recieves his 'Spacey' infront of a crowd of millions


The last and most prestigious award will be rolled over to the 10th era for reasons out of our control (we can’t find the b**ger who won the bloody thing).



Now, let us swiftly move onto our feature topic for today.

GNN will be starting a new feature in ever post entitled ‘This is your Penguin’, where we interview legendary players who have been involved in the game before some of us younger ones could even count.

We will bring back heroes who have not made posts in years..

Sadly, none of them were available today, so we talked to XYZ front man (leader of possibly, the best named alliance that has ever existed..), the one man band from Estonia, Senor!!




Senor, welcome, to ‘This is your Penguin’! Today we are going to talk about your experiences of ST from start to finish, and round it all up in a few quick paragraphs with size 16 lettering. Are you ready?
Ready as ever, GNN.


So Senor, you joined this game in late 2003, about the time when England won the Rugby World Cup and Kalev Ots becomes president of your home nation of Estonia. When you first joined the game, what alliance did you join? Where did you find ST and who were your main allies?
It was over five years ago when I stumbled upon SpaceTrace. I don't remember exactly how and why I found it, but I guess I was searching for online space strategy games I was into that sort of stuff after playing homeworld.

How old where you?
I’m 20 now, so I must have been about 15 or so.


Ok so, what we're your first impressions of the game? Which alliance did you join? Did you make any friends as such?
He he. I joined the game when the BORG war had just started. got dragged into the mess and joined ABC (anti Borg coalition).

It was fun times, lots of people on IRC.

I remember there were these roleplay-like events in chat called whalehunts with people like Gorthmog, Jam, Case, Louie and Metody. Great fun.



What do you think of the Spacetrace now-a-days, compared to the Spacetrace in 2003?
I like both times. Back in 2003 we had like 500 players. and now we have...maybe 75 actives tops. but I enjoy playing now more than in 2003. back then it was more about socialising, now it's about playing the game.


Who would you consider your greatest allies?

My comrades in XYZ of course!





What plans do you have for the future of XYZ, and what do you think will
become of ST in five years time?

I have never cared that much about getting to the top of the scoreboard. XYZ is all about having fun. In five years...i honestly can't say. I'll be around to find out though.


Cool, one last question, what would you consider to be your 'greatest ST moment'?
A tough one...
I can't bring out just one. every battle with a good opponent is a great moment.





Excellent! Well there you go ST, and Senor, thank you kindly for participating in 'This is your Penguin'!







In recent weeks, there has been much talk on the forums over the ‘CTF’ game
that has been a part of Spacetrace for years. We at GNN wanted to ask you,
the players, what your thoughts were and you voiced your opinions with an
Unbelievable response. Let’s look at some of the answers, to the questions.



Quote:
Subject:GNN Needs you
Hey there, fellow space-traveller!

GNN is Spacetrace's very own news-station, and you can find all articles here:

http://www.spacetrace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=32

And, if you've read the above, you can clearly see that we haven't posted in a while.. but we're back! And back with a bang! The forums is split between one revolutionary suggestion, SHOULD THE CTF GAME BECOME OPTIONAL?

You can see the full argument here:
http://www.spacetrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6563

And why is GNN contacting YOU? Because we need YOUR opinion!! So, if you want to participate in an option that could change the ways of ST, reply back to this account with a simple YES/NO answer to this question:
Do you think making the CTF game optional is a good idea?

Add any extra comments you wish, but please keep it short. Selected people will be asked to have a full interview with me, meaning you'll be featured in the latest edition of GNN!

The next article will come out on Sunday, February 1st 2009, where we will (hopefully) reveal admin's decision to make CTF optional or not. So stay tuned.

Once again, here's the link to the latest GNN article:
http://www.spacetrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4563&start=40


Thankyou for taking the time to read this,

Galactic News Network



And here, were some of the replies:



Quote:
Yes, I think the CTF game should become optional. Or better if the must be a flag, give it as a prize to the number one spot alliance at the end of an evo.


Quote:

No to CTF Optional.

CTF adds the true element of war, the fact that you must protext your homeland, first and foremost. It adds balance to the game, by adding that element of risk for making your presence in the universe well known.



Quote:
I vote NO - the CTF should not be optional.

1 - CTF makes the game more interesting, it’s another more complex and interesting way to go for points than simple neighbour-battles.

2 - Why should the CTF part be changed - just 1 alliance is interested in that!

3 - It makes no sense to split this small community anyway.

4 - Without CTF many current players will quit, because they will soon find the game boring.



Quote:
Hi,

My answer is, at the moment, no.

Basically, I have nothing against the idea if we can play the different options in different universes (meaning two servers, or at least two virtual servers). Mixing the separate games in the same universe would IMO not be good.


Quote:

In short…

NO!



Well, there are some very interesting answers there and ST has once again proved it’s members to be very opinionated. GNN would like to say thank you to all of those who responded and, especially to this player:







Well, that is all we have time for today! Now let us have a quick look at the player’s leader board:




Spocko is flying high in 1st position, with Arari of Renihpaes (don’t worry.. We’ve never heard of him either) in 2nd, with Zaphod in 3rd. Marlito is 10th with just 9700 points, so there is plenty of room for a drastic change in the leader board at the start of the 11th era.



Well, that’s it from me, (damn.. I forgot to say who I was…), We hope you enjoyed reading this article (we'd also hope you said thanks once in a ***king while.. do you know how long it took me to write all this?).. See you in a month! From all the GNN team...



Goodnight!




News Just In!!! Due to a surplus of sponsors and a rare premium bond win for the administrators, the GNN team have bought a news helicopter to fly over Space trace’s many astounding battles! There will be a fortnightly post in a new thread, named ‘GNN - Eye in the Sky’, where more games related articles will be made (no Spacey awards in this section!), for the more articulate gamer. So stay tuned - the next update will be in 1 week’s time!




Let's just hope it doesn't end up like this ...
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