Ship changes

[mackman]

I think some of these ships are too powerful example the mobile repair bot and the support frigate I dont think that ships below 0 lp should be able to be repaired and they still seem to.Bots will repair destroyers hit with 15 ap this needs to be changed!

_________________
SBR A former -TO- empire member.

[spacetrace]

i think you are right.

[Passchendaele]

Here is a battle report that illustrates this point.

26.03 22:04
your fleet 2 fights against the base from Anonymous of Anonymous at XXX/XXX/XX
26.03 22:03:56 - your fleet arrived

yours: 23 ships
class 3:
23 cruisers (100/100, 60 MP)

enemy: 24 ships
class 3:
7 cruisers (100/100, 60 MP)
1 capable ship (0/100, 350 MP)
15 support frigate (0/100, 40 MP)
class 4:
1 major reconstructor (0/150, 550 MP)
buildings:
1 transwarp-network (0/100, 0 MP)
1 research center (0/3500, 0 MP)
1 shipyard (0/3500, 0 MP)


- click here to see the complete battlereport -



summary:
your losses:
class 3:
8 cruisers

enemy losses:
class 3:
3 cruisers
4 support frigate
1 capable ship

score: 210

The Support Frigates supposedly repair ships, not reconstructs. It was my belief that a ship that is at 0 ap can not be repaired, but may be reconstructed.

Since the major reconstructor was useless here, the losses should be far greater than they are, but the support frigate brought many destroyed ships to life. No enemy ship here has more than 100 lp, so there should be 22-23 casulties in the enemy fleet.

If I am wrong, and this is the way this ship really was intended to work, please correct me. Then add mp to this ship, because it is way unbalanced.

[Passchendaele]

3 cruisers vs 1 attack down cruiser
2 dreadnoughts emits shockwave
2 cruisers vs 1 cruiser
2 cruisers vs 1 death star mk 1
4 cruisers vs 2 apollo cruiser
2 cruisers vs 2 cruisers
2 cruisers vs 2 support frigate
2 cruisers vs 2 attack down cruiser
7 cruisers vs 7 apollo cruiser
1 dreadnought vs 1 death star mk 1
1 dreadnought vs 1 apollo cruiser






8 destructs 8 ships
6 support figate repaired
1 campaign ship distracts the fleet.
all remaining ships reassemble for another strike after 48 ships
10 cruisers vs 10 cruisers
2 death star mk 1 vs 2 cruisers

These are the battle report details from another battle. The new ships have completely changed the game.

For example, let look at the cloud cruiser in comparison. It will help more of your ships get some shots off, as it also will take more than one cruiser to take down a 100 lp ship. However, the cloud cruiser will also help your enemy's fleet, creating a drawback that must be compensated for. I doesnt even seem that the shockwave affected their ships at all.

With this new support frigate, just for one example, there is not a single drawback to be seen. Why would anybody need cloud cruisers when you can use this ship. There is no weakness to it.

Those capable ships also changed the dynamics of the game. Why does it have to be here? Especially against lower classes, and using cyclops or apollos, its too powerful.

_________________
"We died in hell, they called it Passchendaele."
- Soldiers Lament, WWI

[Passchendaele]

Sorry to post again, and I do not mean to spam, but I want to make another point.

1 month ago- The whole point of this game is balance. Every ship and every fleet has a weakness. There are several ways to crack each different fleet setup. There are no "magic" fleets that can fight anything, and each class has its own specialty ships that no other classes have. You can judge what kind of fleet you are fighting by the numbers and race.

Now- All of the above is gone. There are campaign ships in class three, and several older ships are obsolete. Apollos and cyclops are no longer weak against cruisers, and class three ships can be repaired from 0 or less than 0 lp. You never know what to expect, because there are many new, non-race specific ships, that have no research time and no build time.

Support frigates have only 40 mp!!!!! They are worth their weight in gold! It even looks like they can reconstruct the same ship several times, negative lp or not. How about a fleet of dreads, support frigates, and a capable ship. Lets take all the strategy out of the game, and make players that know about how these ships work invincible. Then everybody can bash the noobs for points, because they wont be getting them from each other.

At first, I supported putting new ships into the game to go pick up. I thought they would be mild, fleet enhancing ships, that had specific functions. I didnt think that they would change the fundamental structure of a battle.

Im sure many readers are thinking that I am upset because I lost, but its not that. I actually won these battles. (less than a 400 point victory each time.) I just butted them with as many cruisers as I could, and saw what happened. These ships can be used to create a very powerful, anti-class one, two, three, and four, with only class three, and in one configuration. The way to beat them, is to use them, fire against fire.

_________________
"We died in hell, they called it Passchendaele."
- Soldiers Lament, WWI

[mackman]

I agree I want the game back to the old way!!!!

_________________
SBR A former -TO- empire member.

[Rubens]

pashendale get the point, i also thought about it, we can destroy all classes in a battle with only 1 configuration, and also NON-RACE, like deathstar mk, attack down,cerberus fighter,oblirator,capable ship,support frigate.
think about a fleet with all those ships, and maybe with apollos, flamingo cyclops,dominator, dreads, what ever, only fighting with class 1 you can destroy almos all the fleet and then class 4...

we are 3 at least... we want the old way!

[Passchendaele]

What a strange thread this is...

I have the long posts, and Rubens has the short post.

_________________
"We died in hell, they called it Passchendaele."
- Soldiers Lament, WWI

[Rubens]

i also think, when i say old way is WITHOUT new ships, the admins have not confidence with these ships, so in each one we can find bugs, and they wont be repair.
Mackman get another pt. mobile repair bot in class 2 is too powerfull, coz if an eagle attack the destroyer still being the same, by the reparation by the mobile, even destroyers in - 4 can be repair. We already have plasma emmiters, and shield genrator

Pashendale fire vs fire is 0 ZERO, so how you win vs those class 3 ships...
if the enemy has class 1 cerberus fighter, if he hasnt try to use plague ship first. if u are kazzula or e-rays, use dominator and flamingo... but wich is the easier?... only and only crusero, aybe with a major....ahh i forgot something, there is 1 ship who can be the counter fleet, plasma pod.

I think the admins or someone take the mp or
the mobile repair bot and SF, by the relation with destroyer and crusero, but i think they had to did it baseing in the reconstrcutors ships.
A major reconstructs 7 ships class 3 only if they are in 0 lp.So the support frigate has to has a higher prize, like 80(80.7=560) or 100 coz he can "reconstrcut" even with a lp below than 0, and the mobile repar bot maybe 8-10mp.
We need to keep to have the balnce of the game and the tec tree, is not the changes what other people wants... please admin!!!

Passhendaele.... all come back to his place... jaja but at the first was strange

[steven1982]

You are totally right with this Passchendaele.
I find my fleet at the moment rather indistructable, and capable of fighting almost every other fleet setup.
A friend of mine even has the dread/support frigate/capable/major reconstructor setup, and it is almost indistructable.
Offcourse there are ways to do it, but then you have to build a special fleet only for that!
I truly think that this is doing no good to the balance at all.
Even though i score nice points with those new ships.

_________________

[spacetrace]

the repair function needs to be changed (i will do this very soon)

outbalanced ships - you see , it is not easy to oversee all consequences of adding a ship. it is risky , but in the end the players change the game because their ships are added to the game. in the end this will pay off because the game gets interactive and dynamic. we will soon learn how to balance new ships better. just help by posting thoughts about discussed ships.

thx
_____________________
indestructable ? never saw that !

[ This Message was edited by: spacetrace on 2004-03-27 11:22 ]

[spacetrace]

the repair function is now fixed ( a ship that has 0 or less lp cannot be reapired )

[masterp]

i agree 100% with rubens and passchendaele!

in the past the game was 100% balanced but now everything has changed !
many players are really upset about that and post it in the forum but no reaction from the admin!the players talk to each other about the huge problems and now we get an answer "the repair function needs to be changed (i will do this very soon)"!

sorry admin but thats delarious we have 20 other major problems and the repair function is not part of it!

to make St now balanced we need many more changes and from my point of view it is not good for the game to make all these changes!

i want the old modus back!


Greets

[JaM]

This game was never 100% perfect.
I agree to Passchendaele that the new ships can form too unbalanced combos.
The admins do this for free and don't have all time of the world to solve the problems.
And please name the other 20 major problems because I can't count so much.

[mackman]

Yes the repair function was one of the problems and it is now fixed.How the heck you gonna fix a ship thats dead 2 times over?Thanx admns for listening to our concerns If any other arise I will post it so you will know.....

_________________
SBR A former -TO- empire member.

[spacetrace]

the repair function was never meant like that .

the game is and was and will ever be about balance. i can tell you about ships and how they was once. there where many unbalanced ships and this can happen always. true : it is neccessary to fine-tune the ship balance, but that's not all.

the game must to be interesting . noone wants to play a balanced but boring game.

So my mission is to achieve both thrill and balance

example: the cyclops may be out of balance, because some any fighter tactics looses against cyclops. but it is better to make a ship that counters the cyclops in a creative way (and others) than to remove the cyclops.

some seem to be a bit out of balance (but not really too much anyway), but this inspiration by the players ships will make spacetrace really,really better (interaction)

so .. i trust in you players that you invent cool ships , we discuss them and balance them and we add them to the game. .... and in the end .. this is just a game ...
so let's take the risk of making an error ... the goal is to have a dynamic , interactive game interface that allows players to take influence on the game play .


[ This Message was edited by: spacetrace on 2004-03-27 15:01 ]

[Rubens]

well, those are my kind of bugs, and some stuffs whoes I think them are wrong.
Comando carrier-sporrogenrator.
U can use only 1 sporator and 1 commando fighter, so for what do you want to have a lot, maybe you need 2, and then for reload, but if you will reload, the fleet with other S or CF so you need 2 fleets, then if you look is the same, make the shipsin your shipyard. I only see this point. players whoes have a race where u cant make those kind of ships... but if we let other player take our tech, so please erease those 2 ships, or make the tec tree wihout renstrictons for races...
Wel you fixed the problem but i think those ships whoes can repair have to has a heavier prize, like 50 and 6 mp.
And retaking my point the capable ship is too powerfull, i mean
campaign ship does the same, but with a lot of shps, and with small and cheap ships, so you can spend 70 mp in two campaign
but the capable does that, with powerfull ships class 3, but the detail is , with powerfull ships whoes can kill almost an entire fleet, and some times class 4 ships too. if everybody think this is balanced, so this hsip has to has 101 lp for dosnt spend 700 mp in two capable.But i think the mp need to be 500-750, and the lp, like u all wants. 101 lp or 100lp.
Another point is
i think nebula and gravitation offer too much poitns, maybe 500 will be better, coz 600 pts is too close than 1000 like BH so all players lost the interesting about the BH.

The admins fixed 2 problems really fast, but you never answred us, about the old modus.
tell us why we cant come back to the old game?. we want that

[JaM]

Well I told you this before ingame but it if you have more sporators or hammers the chance that a sporator or hammer get active sooner.

[Rubens]

you haven't got me yet.
I did understand your point, but i never did failiured using 1... but 2 is logical, but more? not, you dont need them
i have no time now for explain you with words.

2 sporator
x nanobombers(never use this fleet)(for noobs)
vs
10 fighters
if the enemy will attack your sporator first of all the other ships, so you lose 1, and inmediatly the other will attack, in this case modifie.
If the sporator is first that's mean 1 has to attack, in the battle never will jumo to the turn of the nanobomber, now if you attack first so the sporator also will attack and both will be destruct.
in the other case

x nanobomber
2 sporator

(enemy does attack first)
you lose 1 nanobomber, then 1 nanobomber destroy 3 fighters, then a fighter attack to your sporator, after the other up the lp

(you do attack first)
you destroy 3 fighters, so 1 fighter will destroy your nanobomber, then the sporator does change to many ships, and the other blow up.

I am totally sure of this but if i am wrong, let the admin correct me, but we can still discusing.

BTW thanks for that device, use 2... but i wont use 3, not yet. And thanks for the msg ingame, but that was useless, i couldnt attack him.
PD this is a kind of a totally explained battle report, peluc wanna this... but an all one, is really dificult, well it dosnt dificult but take too much time... will be better if you send us a BR and i or other people can exlain you

[JaM]

example:
10 fighters
10 bulk-fighter

you say that you have 2 orders of fighter which this would one of them (which is wrong)
fighter
bulk
fighter
bulk
fighter
bulk
fighter
...
etc

But it can be any order.
You could first have 10 fighters and then 10 bulk-fighters.

So imagine 1000 fighters and 1 sporator. The sporator can be the last ship that fight but also the 627th ship that fight. It is totally random.

Here is an example of my order which I do not need to be explained because I know how it works:

you:
2 sporators
228 bulk fighters
enemy:
371 destroyers



198 bulk fighters vs 33 destroyers
25 bulk fighters vs 5 destroyers
3 bulk fighters vs 1 destroyer
1 sporator is modifying all class 2 ships: 555 ships
1 sporator is modifying all class 1 ships: 202 ships
1 sporator destroys 1 ship






228 destroyers vs 228 bulk fighters